Knife Edge tips.

[Steve_B]

Space,

I'm not one for making excuses when I crash.. the Pitts incident was pilot error 100%. My confidence exceeded my skill, and I was showing off to a friend Crashing once in a while is part of the hobby as far as I'm concerned.

However I honestly feel that my overall flying skill has progressed a lot partly because I'm using mixes. The mixes just mean I can concentrate on flying the plane rather than correcting for poor set-up, just the same as fine tuning the CG, trimming out, or using dual rates or exponential. Each to his own though. I don't really understand why anyone would not want to use their Tx mixing features to the full (unless they maybe cant figure out how to) but I respect the fact that it's a free world and we can each fly however we want.

 

[Steve_B]

Just stirring up the pot here for conversation, I learning flying RC helicopters before there was gyro's for the tail rotor. How many people today learn to fly a RC Helicopter without a gyro? My guess is the answer is no one. A gyro is automatic gear on heli's so why not learn to fly the tail and be proficient without a gyro.

Pretty much the same argument.. I'm sure there are those out there who would say you should learn without one "to make you a better pilot"

 

[Space Bat]

JPF if you read my earlier post I was not arguing a case for not using mixes - I was merely pointing out that learn to fly KE and that goes for all aspects of normal RC flight and learn how to use stick inputs...and corrective inputing to improve and gain RC skills....which you won't gain if simply from the outset you opt for putting it on a switch without learning how to lock in KE by using and learning and improving on your skills...

Once you have a good element of this skill honed and you don't have to be great... then if you want to put a mix in - then this should be at the top of the list of things to do...if it A) helps remove some input load or B) if it takes you up a notch or level on your overall skills..

But I can only strongly say you do need to cut some teeth and learn this stuff...and possibly not on a plane that will bite you...thats what the epp and the easier 3d balsa is for...

So quite contrary to what you think I am saying....

As for helicopters....I can't say much as only have flown the cheapo ones that have no gyro but the flybar

 

[robj]

I personally and just my humble opinion think people should not KE mix until they are proficient in flying knife edge each direction and correct and compensate to keep it locked in....I think this will aide your skills and prove your finger / eye coordination as you constantly adjust the correct inputs....after all you wouldn't teach a new driver to drive around with the cruise button engaged so they drove around at a constant speed...without knowing how to work the brakes and accelerator properly to maintain speed


Once skilled at doing KE for ease of use and to give yourself less to do...then yeah a mix is something that should be up there on the to do things...

So if this works for beta flight, why not alpha flight? throw the trims out of wack where you have to hold up elevator, right aileron, and some rudder just to keep it straight and level.

To me KE mixing/trimming is the same as trimming for level flight. If I'm flying level and the wind kicks my wing up, I now how to correct it. If I'm in KE flight and wind kicks a wing, I know how to correct. Having that correction become second nature is the hard part.

 

[njswede]

I personally and just my humble opinion think people should not KE mix until they are proficient in flying knife edge each direction and correct and compensate to keep it locked in...

I don't know if I agree... You wouldn't tell someone to fly his plane without trimming it, because it teaches them to compensate, would you? It's a little bit the same thing. I want to fly my planes, not fight them, so I'm trying to make them as neutral as possible in most situations. KE mixing is one part of that.

...that being said, I've just started acquiring skills in mixing, so my KE mixes are probably still pretty poor.

 

[Steve_B]

Funny all this talk about KE because i was practising it just this weekend. It was quite windy and turbulent so not the best of conditions, before i discovered mixing I'd never have dreamed of being able to hold KE within 6ft of the ground, even in perfect conditions (in good conditions I can now get it within a couple of ft or so). I'm basically rubbish as this stuff so if it helps me it helps anyone! The video is with of my Ultimate AMR which is a nightmare to fly in KE without mixing, it's got -13 and +18% mix on the elevator and -6 and -9% on aileron, could use a bit more aileron mix judging by the video because it's still trying to roll upright. Imagine trying to fly that amount of coupling out, plus cope with the wind.. that's not for me
[video=youtube;V559GBwjIdM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V559GBwjIdM[/video]

 

[Space Bat]

Groan....

I am not saying don't use a mix....if you have achieved a level of competence and confidence in your abilities...

And the argument of using a mix is the same as trim...is a little suspect?? as you need trim to fly a plane straight and level...and this has been done on radio's of old far before computer radio's existed...so not the same thing at all....

This thread is titled how to get sweet skills....

And part of that is learning how to do things.....Steve, the Bipe is a plane that Always needs coupling...however I would argue...that the plane is not something you would learn to do 3d....never have I seen someone ever recommending a bipe as your first 3d plane...I may be wrong...but doubt it

The point is you need to learn a level of proficiency whether it is up high so you are learning above 3 mistakes high...but is something well worth doing....the more you learn how a plane is designed...the subtle differences of how a plane couples with battery placement - and how it behaves if you have CG nose..to neutral..to tail and how to correct and learn the different aspects of flight...you are selling yourself short as a pilot...

Once you learn this stuff...then its like do what is good for you to go to the next level...such as flying 6ft up...low KE pass

I have trained and coached a few pilots now and currently assisting a couple of pilots now...doing KE's one on a MX2 and other on a EF edge...both are doing it without mixes and both are learning the way a plane responds...and getting serious stick time...

MX2 pilot is still 3 mistakes high whereas the Edge pilot is now flying without mix 6-10ft high on some sweet KE passes and only now have I suggested the mix....to allow him to free him up of input corrections now he is flying that low...but more importantly is proficient and knows what he is doing..

A better pilot is a pilot that betters himself - rather than allowing the radio system to better him falsely that is where mistakes happen as you didn't do the graft and hard work prior to the mix to learn what corrections you needed to apply to get yourself out of trouble...because a mix cant switch you out of a 'OH F>:&S' moment...you need to do that yourself...

But each to their own...

 

[robj]

I wonder if you will make the same argument about expo? Radio induced false sense of flying? Why not have 60 degree throws and have everything linear. Train the thumbs, no cheating! I don't think the old radios had the sort of expo we have now? I wonder if they built in expo in linkages like I just learned on my first gasser(throttle). Recently on the other place in a thread it went like this..."to properly get in touch with the airplane you should not have any expo. It better trains you to get a feel for the airplane and makes you a better pilot" I'm paraphrasing mostly. I guess a 3d pilot with no expo could train the fingers to be that soft. I guess.

If you followed me on the 87 thread I maidened that plane a couple weeks ago and had a switch flipped where I was on high rates but no expo. It was a fun 2 minutes. I didn't learn anything about my plane but I did get it down safely. I did learn to double check expo on a new aerobatic plane!

 

[quadracer]

I agree with what Space Bat is saying. It is akin to 1st grade; they don't give you a calculator to learn math, they teach you how to do it by hand, the hard way. Or how they should do driver's ed. I think everyone should learn to drive a stick shift first, then everything else is cake.

But, mixes make it so much easier.

 

[Steve_B]

Thing that seems to be possibly being overlooked is that mixes dont make the plane fly KE by itself! Mixes are a million miles from a 'KE autopilot'.. No plane is totally stable in KE, you still have to fly it very activly, and you still have to compensate for some elements of coupling as it's never gong to be perfect in all flight condition. Take the AMR video, despite my mix I was still having to activly control on ailerons to prevent it rolling out of KE. Just not so much as I would without the mix. I'm still using the exact same skills, i'm still constantly compensating when it rolls or tucks, but what I dont have to do is fly with the sticks half way into the corners all the time.
I honestly think my KE skills develop much faster becauase I'm using mixes, reason being that with mixes i can maintail KE for longer and I fly it more because i enjoy it more, so i get more practice and get better at it.

Anyway i feel it's worked for me but as the old saying goes "your mileage may vary"