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Scale Wendell Hostetler 30% Piper Cherokee Glass Fuselage Build.

TonyHallo

640cc Uber Pimp
My Champ and Super Cub are done in a similar fashion. Have the telemetry set at 300f, in countless flights, had 1 alarm, this was this past August at the AMA scale Nats while performing a Chandelle maneuver where full power was applied during a 180 degree climbing turn. There was a fellow there with a FG61TS in a Carbon Cub done up in a Red Bull scheme, his engine locked up while doing the Chandelle.
All my recent builds have exit area less than the recommended 3 to 1, If flying 3d, it might be a different story.
 

TonyHallo

640cc Uber Pimp
Pecking away at the door latch. The latch is 1/16" brass sheet with a 3/32" brass tube for the hinge. The latch slides in a 5/32" x 5/16" rectangular tube. Looking for a spring

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Snoopy1

640cc Uber Pimp
Tony would you mind discussing with me the pro’s and con’ of baffling the way I have done it with a full baffle around the engine.
 

TonyHallo

640cc Uber Pimp
I guess what I try is to have a high zone created by the prop blast and velocity pressure and a low pressure zone created normally by a lip in front the exit opening. Then force the air to travel across the cooling fins while minimizing leakage.
The first photo is the Roto 85 FS installed in the BUSA 1/3 scale Super Cub, the firewall is the boundary between the high and low pressure zones. High pressure due to velocity pressure of the aircraft and prop blast, the low pressure caused by the scale sized lip on the bottom of the cowl and cowl protrusions on the sides of the. Since the cylinders are a few inches ahead of the pressure boundary, the fiberglass ducts are included. Over the past two years, one alarm over 300 degrees and this was on very hot day at the NATS this year. The alarm occurred while performing a Chandelle maneuver. The maneuver was almost complete so no action was taken. There is some leakage across the pressure boundary since there are a few gaps between the firewall and the cowl. At the last fun fly of the year, I had to idle on the runway for 6 to 7 minutes due to a photo opp, I was monitoring the temperature and during takeoff the engine was operating at normal inflight temperatures, flew an eight minute scale sequence without an alarm. The left cylinder runs 40 to 50 degrees F hotter that the right, not sure why, nothing seems different right to left. Works OK on all but the hottest days, the only reason I was flying on the day of the alarm because it was at the NATS contest, I would have much more liked sipping a Miller Lite.
I have the alarms set at 300 F with a sensor under each spark plug and on the top of each cylinder,four total.


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This next photo is the 1/3 scale Champ with the Roto 85 FS. Here the pressure boundary is located in front of the engine more like what you used. Added the baffles behind the boundary plate to keep the air close to the cooling fins. The low pressure is caused by a lip on the bottom of the cowl with and exit area about equal to entrance area. There are two sensors on each cylinder near the top. This is an older engine and the plug caps were different, I don't believe a sensor could be fitted under the plug. The temperatures measured are closer to Super Cub at the top of the cylinder. Have the alarms set at 290F and over 5 years had a few alarms that were corrected with a mixture change. Guessing no alarms over the last 2 years. I would say it works about the same as the Super Cub.
The sensors are positioned in the same place on each cylinder, left side runs about 30 degrees apart while the right side match. I think the plog temp is more reliable.


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The final photo brings us to this build. There's a fellow over on RC Scale Builder that has a wonderful BUSA Ercoupe, great and amazing build. He had overheating and added a baffle that solved his problem, he provided the file that was used to cut the baffle here. The pressure boundary on this plane is much better than the previous two and I expect it to work as planned or should I say hoping? Again the exit and entry area are very close in size. I can measure 6 temperatures on this plane.
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Snoopy1

640cc Uber Pimp
Ok what I had done is very similar to the last photo with the Satio engine. But the baffle went from the engine to the cowl.
Problems I encountered with this set up.
1. Engine was overheating when pushed hard and in most of the 3D manoeuvres.
2. Also had mixture problems because the carb was sitting behind the baffle plate.
3. Several changes to the flat plate baffle but nothing changed much.

Next stripped the cowl removed everything. Build 2 tubes like baffles from the opening in the front of the cowl to the 2 cylinder heads, the normal way most of us do it.
1. My over heating went away still hot not hot enough to go into an alarm but close.
2. Carburetor problems disappeared.
3. Did not change the exit hole for the hot air to get out just the ducting to the engine.

My thoughts on the flat plate baffle. Looking at the last picture with the Satio engine very similar to the way I did it.
1. The flat plate between the vale covers is blocking a lot air that is required to flow over the spark plug to cool it.
2. The flat plate around the crankcase is tight not letting much air through to cool the crankcase if any.
3. The total volume of air sitting in front of the baffle is considerable more than the volume going through the fins heated. So the air in front is being heated before it goes through the fins. Exhaust location has a big effect as in my case.

Just my experience with the flat plate baffle design and my thoughts of why I was not very successful with it.
 

TonyHallo

640cc Uber Pimp
There is a large heat sink on the bottom of the crankcase, this needed included in the cooling air flow so just cooling the cylinders is not an option. I do not believe cooling air over the spark plugs is a requirement. Three ZDZ engines and the original ignition on the first Roto engine had the plugs encased in an aluminum cans.
On this engine the plan is to measure the spark plug temperatures, 1 place on top of each cylinder, the crankcase heat sink in two places, one behind the starter motor and one in free space. Time will tell.
Why didn't your plate baffle work? I seen DA 200 four cylinder engines cooled with a flat baffle plate. I'm guessing the air flow was pulled away from the cylinders after it passed the baffle most likely down towards the bottom of the plane. In this case the air is traveling straight back along the cylinders to opening in the firewall.
As far as the carb, there's not much you can do when it's located behind the engine. I thought that might be a problem but as long as it is running it doesn't seem to be but vapor lock may be the cause of no starts when the engine is hot, that's why I left the super Cub idle for 6 to 7 minutes above, I knew if I shut it down, it would need to cool down to restart.
Good discussion here as always.
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Snoopy1

640cc Uber Pimp
Ok why I am asking and discussing this form of cooling is I am trying to understand and what I need to do or try to do when cooling engines with a single plate baffle. The 2 reasons why I am asking is one is what I have done in the past was not very successful it worked but not great. The second reason is I have Kolm 150cc three cylinder in line engine. In the process of building a plane for the engine. I believe the only way to cool the engine is run a single baffle along the cylinder heads and crank case from front to the back of the engine. Run the cool air down one side and extract the hot from the other side.
So two thoughts.
1. Build a pressure chamber down the one side of the motor with a flat plate and duct the hot air out as best as I can On the other side.
2. OR run three individual ducts from the front of the cowl to each cylinder. This will prove to be difficult to do but not impossible. Also allow sufficient air into the cowling to cool the crankcase.

One Extra note cooling or I should say cooling air over the top of a cylinder head made a big deal of difference on one plane for me. The engine was baffled from the cowl to the cylinder head. The baffling stopped just at the top of the the cooling fins of head (top) Thinking it would force the air into fins. Note that this engine had the spark plug directly on top the head. The engine ran hot but did not overheat but hotter than my other planes. So I changed the baffling just going to the top of the cylinder head i raised it to go over the top of the cylinder head with about 3/16 of an inch clearance up to the spark plug, this made a marked difference in cooling the engine.
 
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TonyHallo

640cc Uber Pimp
Keeping the air in contact with the cooling fins is key. Looking at the Kolm 3 cylinder photos, there's a lot of stuff going on the intake/exhaust side of the engine. I would make three layups the shape of the cylinder and attach those to a flat plate opposite the intake and make that the high pressure side. I assume the engine will be mounted inverted? You have your work cut out! Have you seen photos of other installations?
 

TonyHallo

640cc Uber Pimp
Added the filler behind the latch. Woke up one morning last week and thought about the small brass dog bending with use since brass sheet is annealed during the silver brazing. Made a new latch out of steel. Also fitted a strike plate to the jam. The door will close without opening the latch.
Have the engine mounted in a test stand awaiting the delivery from Falcon Prop Co. Suggested size is 21"23", ordered a 22x10 carbon fiber prop and 3 1/2" carbon fiber spinner.

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Snoopy1

640cc Uber Pimp
Keeping the air in contact with the cooling fins is key. Looking at the Kolm 3 cylinder photos, there's a lot of stuff going on the intake/exhaust side of the engine. I would make three layups the shape of the cylinder and attach those to a flat plate opposite the intake and make that the high pressure side. I assume the engine will be mounted inverted? You have your work cut out! Have you seen photos of other installations?
Ok the carburetor and the exhaust is on the same side. But not the exhaust so much I can work around it I believe. So I think I will make the cool side and carburetor side. Yes the engine will be inverted.
looking at your photos again the ones on the Roto I think are way to do it. I like the flat plate on the back of the pressure plate along the cylinder forcing the air stay in contact with the cylinder.
Yes I have looked at as many as I can find.
Thanks for the help and suggestions I will keep you informed I have started a build on GSN just Need time to get to it, Will get into the build after Christmas
 
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